Let Them Eat Copycat Caterpillar Cakes! – Ep. 42 [Podcast]

Summary:

Can copycat caterpillar cakes clearly create consumer confusion? UK grocers Marks & Spencer and Aldi have been trading barbs over this recently. But, if you take a look at their competing cakes, Cuthbert the Caterpillar and Colin the Caterpillar…well…let’s just say that even the great Marie Antoinette would be perplexed. We’re joined by special guest Nika Videtic and to discuss this high profile case of alleged copyright infringement.

Transcript: 

Raymond Guarnieri:

Can copyright caterpillar cakes clearly create customer confusion, UK grocers Marks & Spencer and ALDI have been trading barbs over this recently. But if you take a look at their competing cakes, Cuthbert the caterpillar and Colin the caterpillar, well let’s just say that even the great Marie Antoinette would be perplexed. We’re here today with special guest Nika Videtic and this is stuff you should know about IP.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Stuff you should know about IP is the sweetest, chocolatiest, most light and fluffy melt in your mouth podcast on intellectual property. So if you’re having fun learning about IP, please hit that like button wherever you’re watching or listening and leave a comment, subscribe, and don’t forget to bring home a slice for your spouse. Today’s episode of stuff you should know about IP is brought to you by The Trademark Lawyer magazine. If you want to say up to date with everything that’s going on in the world of IP and trademarks, go to www.trademarklawyermagazine.com. Each issue is free to read for up to eight weeks. That’s trademarklawyermagazine.com for global news in the world of trademarks. Okay, Tom, Nika, let’s talk about cake and I hope you guys appreciated my Marie Antoinette reference. I tried so hard to put that into the intro.

Thomas Colson:

Ray, you’ve been trying to put that into the intro for 12 weeks now. Finally, you had an opportunity to put a Marie Antoinette reference in.

Raymond Guarnieri:

What Nika doesn’t know is I’m a huge Marie Antoinette fan. I mean, I’ve got pictures of famous paintings of her on my bedroom wall.

Thomas Colson:

Of course you do. Who doesn’t? No Ray-

Raymond Guarnieri:

I know two things about Maria Antoinette and one is that she said, “Let them eat cake.”

Thomas Colson:

Listen, that was clever. That intro and brilliant and it had nothing to do with Maria Antoinette. That was a great intro.

Raymond Guarnieri:

I don’t know if she actually said that by the way. That might be one of those rumors that’s not true.

Thomas Colson:

No, that was a great intro. So anyway, so we have a situation which Nika is going to give us all kinds of great information about because she is, as I’ve just figured out, a law student, which means she’s going to be out there in the big bad world of lawyers one of these days. So Marks & Spencer has had this caterpillar cake called Colin for 30 years. It’s been unchanged since 2004 and ALDI’s came out with Cuthbert the caterpillar recently. And about two months before they were sued by Marks & Spencer, they pulled it off the market. But then they brought it back for this big charity thing. And that’s really ticking off Marks & Spencer.

Thomas Colson:

But there’s one other piece of information that we need before we can start our discussion and that is these are not the only caterpillar cakes on the market. There is Colin, there is Cuthbert, but there’s also Cecil, which is Waitrose’s caterpillar cake. There’s Wiggles, which is Sainsbury’s caterpillar cake. There’s Curly, which is Tesco’s caterpillar cake and there’s Clyde, which is Asda’s caterpillar cake and Ray and Nika, let me tell you they all look very much alike. Now they don’t look as close as Colin and Cuthbert. But if you look at all these caterpillar cakes next to each other, you’re like that’s a lot of caterpillar cakes and they all pretty much look like caterpillar cakes.

Thomas Colson:

So Nika what’s going on here? Can they do this, Nika? You’re in your second year of graduate school for law, which means you’re the most expert on this entire podcast. So the question is Nika, can they do this? ALDI’s, can ALDI’s do this?

Nika Videtic:

So this has been a very high profile case since last year, 2021, April. And yes, essentially it involves trademark infringement dispute between Marks & Spencer and ALDI, where ALDI’s look alike design cake Cuthbert the caterpillar was accused of infringing Marks & Spencer Colin the caterpillar cake and causing consumer confusion in the cake product marketplace.

Nika Videtic:

Now the confidentiality agreement that’s been agreed between both parties meant that the settlement between the two remain private and any kind of future changes, maybe that are reflected in the cakes design, we can then infer maybe that was the agreement that was decided on, but we don’t know for sure whether ALDI was actually wrong, whether it was affirmed that ALDI wrongly alleged-

Raymond Guarnieri:

Infringed.

Nika Videtic:

Sorry.

Thomas Colson:

No, that’s okay Nika, I think what you mean is we don’t really know if ALDI was actually infringing.

Nika Videtic:

There we go, yes.

Thomas Colson:

Colin the caterpillar, because it’s not public, right? There was no fine adjudication but instead they settled. Is that what I’m hearing Nika? They settled.

Nika Videtic:

Exactly. They settled. We don’t know the details. It’s all kept secret.

Thomas Colson:

Right. But I love the way you put that. We might know the details by what happens next.

Nika Videtic:

Yes, yes.

Thomas Colson:

Right, so if ALDI’s comes out with their, you call it Cuthbert.

Nika Videtic:

Cuthbert. Yeah. Cuthbert, yeah.

Thomas Colson:

So you don’t pronounce the th th you pronounce it t, so it’s Cuthbert.

Nika Videtic:

Yeah. I think, I think that’s how it goes.

Thomas Colson:

No, no, that’s okay. You know, better than I because you’re actually over there. So if ALDI comes out with a new version of Cuthbert that doesn’t look quite as exactly like Colin as I’m sure Ray, you’re going to be able to put the two side by side on the screen during this podcast.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. I’ll share it right now.

Thomas Colson:

It’s oh, okay, good. It’s stunning how close these two cakes are. It’s almost as if to me, it’s almost as if ALDI went out, bought the Cuthbert cake and copied it exactly. And then went into the marketplace and said… I’m sorry, bought the Colin cake, copied it exactly and then changed the name to Cuthbert. They didn’t even change the first letter, right? So, what do you think though? Nika, you’re our brilliant law student. There was a settlement. So, that might give you the hint that there was some sense that ALDI had that they might lose, right? Because they settled.

Nika Videtic:

Right. Yeah. I think it’s easier to look at it from the perspective of both parties. So in terms of Marks & Spencer, if you look at, purely if you look at, for instance, Cuthbert the caterpillar and Colin the caterpillar, you can instantly see Colin and Cuthbert are very different names. But so the court may put a little bit more of an emphasis on that and say, “Well there’s a difference so there would be no risk for consumer confusion on that.” But then there’s also the element of an average consumer. The fact that there’s already a lot of different caterpillar cakes in the market, what may mean that consumers already accustomed to seeing a lot of these different types of cakes and may not find this very, they may not think that this is that strange or bizarre. So they may actually not confuse the Colin the caterpillar cake with Cuthbert, that it’s associated with Marks & Spencer. So I think the more you digest the different elements of the case, the more different considerations that pop up in thinking about it and analyzing the case.

Thomas Colson:

Because it’s all about consumer confusion, right Nika?

Nika Videtic:

Yes. Yes.

Thomas Colson:

I mean, the question is will people going to buy Cuthbert the caterpillar think they’re buying something from Marks & Spencer, right? That’s the big question is will there be confusion as to source, right?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah. If you look at it from… I think it’s like this, if you’re not aware that Colin the caterpillar is actually originating from Marks & Spencer, if you have no idea who Colin the caterpillar is, it’s much more readily confused with Cuthbert the caterpillar. But if you’re regular, for instance, customer of Marks & Spencer, then if you regularly pass it by and you see, oh, Hey, there’s Colin the caterpillar in stalls, you may become much more readily aware of the differences I think, if you’re a regular consumer and customer and aware of the different types of products that are already in the market in terms of the caterpillar cake. So I think that’s the perspective that ALDI may be coming from. Why is our product that different if you already have different types of caterpillar products from different chains in the UK store?

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. And by the way, it’s kind of an interesting analysis because it’s the opposite of what you normally think.

Nika Videtic:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

And that is we’re not looking at a comparison of the trademarks. We’re looking at a comparison of the caterpillars, right?

Nika Videtic:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

It’s almost like we’re not looking at the marks, we’re looking at the product because right now, again, there’s a Curly, a Clyde, a Cecil, a Wiggles, a Colin and a Cuthbert. And the caterpillar, that wouldn’t be considered because it’s generic, right? It’s descriptive of the caterpillar. So people would just be looking at the names and maybe the names are all different. So in this case, if it were just Colin the caterpillar, Cuthbert the caterpillar, Cecil, Wiggles, Curly and Clyde and the cakes all look different, we probably wouldn’t even be having this discussion because there’s so many in the marketplace, right?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

But the cakes, these two cakes look exactly the same and somebody might come into the marketplace and say, “Wow, it looks like M&S has come out with a brother to Colin the caterpillar, and it’s an M&S product.” Because of what we in the U.S. would call trade dress.

Nika Videtic:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

So there’s the words and the graphics, but then there’s the trade dress, which is like, for example, there was a case in the U.S. years ago where two taco restaurants or Mexican restaurants had almost identical themes and one sued the other, the one who created the theme for trade dress infringement. And they prevailed. They actually were able to stop the other restaurant from using their theme. So the names of the firms or the restaurants were different, mostly different, but the theme, the look and feel of the restaurant itself was the same. And if I were arguing on behalf of M&S, I would say, “Yeah, they have Cuthbert and we have Colin, which are arguably different, but the themes to our cakes are identical. They’ve copied it identically.” So what do you think about that Nika?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah. So in the UK here, the main action that was actually being discussed in terms of, because Marks & Spencer does have registered trademarks to Colin the caterpillar and also the female version, Connie the caterpillar and also the packaging of the product. But there was some potential discussion around unregistered rights in terms of passing off the UK common law action what generally aims to prevent the use of visually similar branding, the get up, the look and feel of a product. And that was pretty much framing the discussion of can they associate the goodwill that’s associated to the product in terms of the consumers. Can it be misrepresented and can consumers visually think, oh, Colin the caterpillar and Cuthbert, they’re confusing the two. And is it causing damage to or is it likely to cause damage to Marks & Spencer by diverting the sales away from Marks & Spencer to ALDI, for instance?

Nika Videtic:

So, that was one of the discussions that was being framed. But the issue with passing off as a claim on its own is that the main limitations actually requires a lot of evidence to prove a business created a substantial goodwill with its consumers in the marketplace. And that’s not always very easy to achieve.

Thomas Colson:

But don’t you think it’s easy to achieve here though Nika, that Colin the caterpillar is the OG, right?

Nika Videtic:

Yes.

Thomas Colson:

I mean, of all the caterpillar cakes, Colin is the original.

Nika Videtic:

Yes.

Thomas Colson:

And they’ve been around for 30 years, substantially unchanged for 30 years. So they probably have established recognition as the thing we see on the screen as their trade dress, if you will.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Nika Videtic:

Sorry.

Raymond Guarnieri:

I was going to say for anyone who’s listening and not watching the podcast, we have a photo up of the two cakes and you can see in the Colin the caterpillar and the Cuthbert the caterpillar trademarks themselves, they’re pretty different and of course it’s a different name. And like Tom said, caterpillar is descriptive. But if you look at the cakes themselves, they’re a tubular shaped cake covered in chocolate and the face is made with white chocolate and the legs are these little white chocolate, almost like little chocolates like you get out of a box. And they have on the backs, they look like M&Ms or candy coated chocolates like an M&M and they’re purple and yellow and orange and all together, it looks like the exact same cake. So if you’re just listening, it’s worth going and looking at the photos of them side by side. We don’t see the packaging for Colin.

Thomas Colson:

Exactly Ray. That’s one thing. It would be nice to see the side by side packaging as well.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. I’ll see if I can find it, but yeah, so-

Thomas Colson:

Here’s a funny thing. So here’s a funny thing about the story that I think is clever in the way that they’re both approaching this. So, ALDI’s is saying, “Hey, we’re bringing this back on a limited basis for charity.” Right? So it’s difficult to fight back against that, right? Because it’s for charity. So they say… There was a tweet by ALDI and it said, “Hey, Marks & Spencer we’re taking a stand against caterpillar cruelty. Can Colin and Cuthbert be besties?” And then they say, “We’re bringing back a limited edition of Cuthbert next month and want to donate all profits to cancer charities, including your partners, Macmillan cancer.” Which Colin the caterpillar has been supporting for 25 years and then also their partner, which is Teenage Cancer Trust. And then they use a hashtag caterpillars for cancer.

Thomas Colson:

So then M&S tweets back saying, “Hey, ALDI, we love the charity idea. Colin’s been a big fund raiser for years. We just want you to use your own character.” And then they say, “How about Kevin the carrot cake? The ideas on us and we promise we won’t do Keith.” So it’s really clever how ALDI’s is trying to get public support on their side by saying, “Hey, it’s for charity. Come on, dude. It’s for charity. We’re trying to help people here.” But M&S responded, I think brilliantly, which is, “Yes and we’ve been about charity forever. Why don’t you use your own character for charity?” And then they suggest one, which is really cute, right? And then they say, “We promise we won’t do Keith. So we’ll give you Kevin the carrot cake. We promise we won’t do Keith.” I think it’s really brilliant how M&S has responded to what could have been a very awkward situation where they’re being cast like anti charity. What do you think Nika?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah, yeah. Right. It’s one of those interesting social media strategies that was used first by ALDI and then reciprocated by Marks & Spencer. But the kind of tactic that ALDI used, I think they try to turn a situation into something a little bit more lighthearted and divert some of the accusations away from them and get better publicity on their side. And that’s really on throwing down on social media is one of the best ways to get people on your side. So especially in this day and age, so that was an interesting tactic.

Nika Videtic:

And I think also there has been some commentary surrounding that ALDI’s use of that has actually helped to kind of dilute the confusion a little bit between the two that had made consumers aware, oh, okay you’re talking about Cuthbert the caterpillar and this is Marks & Spencer’s product. So it’s very different. So I think they were very smart in thinking what kind of implications this could have for them.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. Some of the social media posts were really funny. This was one where I think ALDI posted this one and it shows Cuthbert in, it shows them side by side, but Cuthbert’s in his box, but they put bars over the box. So it looks like Cuthbert’s in jail. And then after the settlement came through, I saw a post that they had that said Cuthbert’s been released early on good behavior.

Raymond Guarnieri:

But here you can see the packaging for Colin and you could see the packaging. I mean, the bars are not real, but you could see the way the trademark is used on the packaging and versus how it is here on Colin. And they’re clearly very different. But one other really interesting photo, so here are all those other cakes that you were describing before, Tom.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah.

Raymond Guarnieri:

It doesn’t say the names of the caterpillars, but it says which company.

Thomas Colson:

Okay. Well, I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you Tescos is called Curly. That’s the one on the bottom.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Okay.

Thomas Colson:

With the orange. Sainsbury’s is Wiggles. Asda’s is Clyde.

Raymond Guarnieri:

That one’s not even on here.

Thomas Colson:

It’s on the bottom left.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Oh, there it is.

Thomas Colson:

And then there’s one by Waitrose. Is that on? Oh yeah. That one is Cecil.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Cecil.

Thomas Colson:

And then you have the M&S is Colin. And then you have the ALDI, oh, by the way, this ALDI looks different in the face because it doesn’t have the chocolate-

Raymond Guarnieri:

The eyes aren’t that dark.

Thomas Colson:

Dark chocolate eyes, yeah. But what I love Ray, what you just described, which is the way they said he was released early first. First day after prison. Here’s the thing that’s really great about it for both companies. I want to buy one of these cakes now, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

I want to go out and I’ll probably buy one of each because I’ll bet you this dispute is building the recognition of the caterpillar cake for all of these companies, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

And the lighthearted way, like you said Nika, the lighthearted way that ALDI responded, because here’s the thing, when you’re an infringer, you don’t want to be cast as the villain, right? I mean, I’ve been involved in patent and trademark litigations where there’s just blatant copying and then they’re denying it and they’re just villains, right? But ALDI’s being so lighthearted, it’s hard to not laugh at their approach, right? Because it’s funny. It’s cute. So they’re not villains, but then M&S, instead of getting all indigent about it, or indignant about it I mean, instead of getting all indignant, they’re being funny along with it, right? But they’re just saying, “Hey, you know we still want you to do your own thing.” I don’t know, I think both sides have handled this very well. This is like a lesson on how to manage the social media in connection with infringement, which is very serious business, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. Yeah. And one other thing too, that I was just thinking about this is-

Thomas Colson:

Is that your dogs barking?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Apologies audience for the barking dog. One of the things I was thinking about is that ALDI’s is like a cut cost company, right?

Thomas Colson:

Yeah.

Raymond Guarnieri:

It’s more affordable products that are similar to other products that you can get in other supermarkets, grocery stores.

Thomas Colson:

Right.

Raymond Guarnieri:

The difference in price between the M&S and the ALDI cakes was like 10 pounds. It was like 10 pounds less expensive for the ALDI cake and-

Thomas Colson:

Wait, how much is this cake?

Raymond Guarnieri:

I think M&S was like 23 pounds or something.

Thomas Colson:

The other was only 13.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. Something like that.

Thomas Colson:

See, that’s a big difference, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

I don’t know the exact figures, but that’s a pretty big difference for a cake that, I mean, of course ALDI’s cakes look somewhat similar, but the M&S and ALDI ones are the most similar. And if you’re having a birthday party for your kid, you might think, well, I could go get Colin for 23 or I could go, and I’ve got 20 kids coming, so I’m going to need five of them or I could go to ALDI and spend at half the cost. I mean-

Thomas Colson:

Right. But that actually goes against to trademark infringement in my view, because it’s showing that they’re actually a kind of a different market.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Ah.

Thomas Colson:

Now let’s say though that somehow these cakes, that M&S had a patent on their cake, okay? So let’s say that somehow in this magical world that I’m creating right now, M&S has a patent on their caterpillar cake. Now, what you just described would not only be a big, that would be a big reason to help them get a preliminary injunction granted against ALDI because they’re eroding their price. They’re eroding their market. They’re creating irreparable harm in the marketplace because it’s diminishing the 23 pound cake down to a 13 pound cake, if it was a patent issue.

Thomas Colson:

So if it were a patent issue, the reduced price would actually work against ALDI in terms of defending their preliminary injunction motion. But because it’s a trademark and trade dress issue that could actually help them. We’re clearly at different, everybody knows you can’t get an M&S for 13 pounds.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

So everybody knows if you’re getting it for 13 pounds, it must be the ALDI, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right. Yeah. Another thing [crosstalk 00:23:41].

Thomas Colson:

What’s for trademark and patent?

Raymond Guarnieri:

The other thing too is, obviously, well maybe this isn’t obvious, but I would assume that you can only get Colin at M&S and you can only get Cuthbert at ALDI. So you actually have to go to a totally different store, possibly in a totally different part of town to get the cake that you want and you have to [crosstalk 00:24:06].

Thomas Colson:

Yeah, they’re not side by side.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. They’re not side by side on store shelves.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right. Right. If they were side by side, it might be a bit different.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. So, you have a difference in trademark, right? One is Cuthbert, one is Colin. Number two, you have a difference in price, a substantial difference in price, like 40% less. Number three, you can’t even buy them in the same place, right? You can’t get the Colin at ALDIs and you can’t get the Cuthbert at M&S. So it’s really going against the idea that consumers would be confused, which goes back to Nika’s original comment about the settlement when I said, “Well, it shows that they probably felt there was something wrong.” And Nika said, “No, that’s not maybe actually how it’s going to play out.” Because maybe the settlement was more like M&S realized they might lose. So let’s just come up with a settlement, just change it a little bit or something like that.

Thomas Colson:

But you make some good points Ray, about the differences in terms of consumer confusion because ultimately unlike patents where consumer confusion is really not relevant, trademarks it’s all about likelihood of confusion to the consumers. So Colin versus Cuthbert, maybe it could be confusing, but you’re giving a lot of reasons why it’s not Ray and Nika.

Thomas Colson:

So what’s the ultimate verdict Nika? If you were the judge, you’ve heard all the facts now, you know the law because you’re a law student. What’s your verdict? What’s your judgment Nika? Guilty of trademark infringement or not guilty.

Nika Videtic:

I would say guilty.

Thomas Colson:

Guilty after, I love that after all that it’s guilty. Okay, Ray, what’s your reasoning Nika?

Nika Videtic:

No, but I think generally it’s interesting because the case came pretty close to ask a question of how close can competitors actually get to the actual get up, of designing the actual get up and visual appearance of a product without actually infringing on the product itself. Because there’s not enough evidence that could be established to say that consumers are legitimately confused in the marketplace. So I think that’s an element that would really kind of work against Marks & Spencer.

Nika Videtic:

But I would say, yeah guilty because they have, Marks & Spencer has a very long line. It has been around since 1990 and it’s been the first in the marketplace to establish its reputation with the caterpillar cake. And I think if you compare the differences if you see the different types of cakes from different stores, this one I think is most, I think visually just strikingly similar so.

Thomas Colson:

Wait, what about this though Nika?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Works now. Okay. We’re back. We had a slight technical delay, but we’re back.

Thomas Colson:

So what I was going to ask Nika, who just banged down her gavel and said guilty as charged. I was going to ask Nika in the U.S., we have something called a estoppel, which basically means in a high level, if you’ve been letting it go for a long time, too late, you can’t bring it up now. And I’m looking at M&S, they’ve been around, yes, they’ve been around for like 30 years. But one day, Cecil steps in and they’re like, “Eh, whatever.” Then Wiggles jumps into the scene and they’re like, “Eh, eh, I’m just not going to do anything.” Then you got Curly comes strolling in. Then you got Clyde coming in. And every time M&S does nothing. So now ALDIs comes along with Cuthbert and they’re like, “Hey, everyone else is doing it. Everyone else is creating virtually the exact same caterpillar cake. Why can’t I?” So they walk in and boom, they get punched right in the face by M&S, what do you say about that Judge Nika?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah. No, it definitely works against them because if you pick up that something doesn’t sit right, or there’s something disrupting your own brand line, you should act on it immediately rather than waiting it out because it’ll work against you. Especially if you’ve built already a really pretty strong reputation around your brand. It’s just better to go and consider your strategy straight from the start.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. I like that. So Nika, I think M&S, Marks & Spencer should hire you as their intellectual property lawyer, because you would’ve said the very first sign of another competitive caterpillar take, let’s take them down, right?

Nika Videtic:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

So Ray, what’s your verdict or your judgment?

Raymond Guarnieri:

My judgment is I think that we need more data. I think the only way that we can really-

Thomas Colson:

Oh, you don’t get more data, Ray, that’s it. You got to make your decision based on this.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Well, hold on, this isn’t a real court of law. This is a Guarnieri monarchy of law.

Thomas Colson:

Good point, good point.

Raymond Guarnieri:

And I say we buy one of each of these cakes. I say all eight of them. And we do a taste test and whichever one tastes the best, only they’re allowed to sell.

Thomas Colson:

I agree. And by the way, I think we should eat the entire cakes, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Now it’s turning into one of those social media challenges. Finish the whole cake.

Thomas Colson:

That’s right.

Raymond Guarnieri:

[inaudible 00:29:57] Get enough.

Thomas Colson:

Oh, actually what we should do is have a contest between ALDI’s and M&S, each has to eat the other’s cake, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

There you go.

Thomas Colson:

We’ll sit them down side by side. You got to eat the full cake with one fork. Can’t use your fingers. Can’t dig in and start cramming it in your mouth. You got to use the fork, pinky up and then you’ve got to see who gets the cake eaten first. They win. How’s that for Guarnieri land?

Raymond Guarnieri:

I’m all for it. I’m all for it.

Thomas Colson:

As long as you’re one of the judges.

Raymond Guarnieri:

It’ll be a cheat day of all cheat days.

Thomas Colson:

Right. Well Nika, I’m so glad we did this little session together. This is fun.

Nika Videtic:

Thank you for having me.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah, thanks for joining us Nika. And to all of you out there in podcast land if you enjoyed listening to us talk about the M&S and all the battle of the caterpillar cakes, please don’t forget to hit that subscribe button, like, share your comments, let us know which caterpillar cake you enjoy the most and we’ll see you next time.

Thomas Colson:

So long.