Science Fiction Prior Art – Ep. 29 [Podcast]

Summary:

In this week’s episode of Stuff You Should Know About IP, Thomas Colson and Raymond Guarnieri examine whether a science fiction work can be used as prior art to block a patent. In order to obtain patent protection, an invention must be novel and non-obvious. If a science fiction work shows that an invention is either obvious or not new, then the science fiction work can prevent the invention from being patented, but only if the work describes the invention in sufficient detail. For example, in 1968, Charles Hall’s utility patent application for a water-bed was rejected because Robert Heinlein had thoroughly described a water-bed in three science fiction works: Beyond this Horizon in 1942, Double Star in 1956, and Stranger in a Strange Land in 1961. But Star Trek would not block a patent for a transporter beam, and Star Wars would not block a patent for a light saber, because neither Star Trek nor Star Wars describes how either invention actually works. Litigants can also cite science fiction in cases involving infringement of design patents. In 2011, when Apple sued Samsung for design patent infringement, Samsung argued that Arthur C. Clarke’s 2001: A Space Odyssey was relevant prior art. Even The Sunken Yacht, a Donald Duck cartoon by Carl Banks, was used as prior art to block a patent. Karl Kroyer sought a patent for his method of raising a sunken ship by using a tube to fill it with ping pong balls, but his application was rejected because Donald Duck did it first.

Sources

The “Donald Duck as prior art” case, Ius Mentis, https://www.iusmentis.com/patents/priorart/donaldduck/ (last visited March 9, 2021).

Daniel Eran Dilger, Samsung cites science fiction as prior art in US iPad patent case, Apple Insider, https://appleinsider.com/articles/11/08/23/samsung_cites_science_fiction_as_prior_art_in_us_ipad_patent_case (Aug. 23, 2011).

Jay Garmon, Geek Trivia: Strange (water)bedfellows, Tech Republic, https://www.techrepublic.com/article/geek-trivia-strange-waterbedfellows/ (Aug. 1, 2006).

Robert A. Heinlein, Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein (last visited March 9, 2021).

Arthur C. Clarke, Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke (last visited March 9, 2021).

Isaac Asimov, Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov (last visited March 9, 2021).

Transcript

Raymond Guarnieri:

Can science fiction be considered prior art? Well, if you tried to patent the waterbed anytime after the 1950s, you might find yourself feeling a bit like a stranger in a strange land. Scape of IP. This is Stuff You Should Know About IP.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Today’s episode of Stuff You Should Know About IP is brought to you by the Patent Lawyer Magazine. If you want to stay up to date with everything that’s going on in the world of IP and patents, go to www.PatentLawyerMagazine.com. Each issue is free to read for up to eight weeks. That’s www.PatentLawyerMagazine.com for global news in the world of patents. All right, Tom, I am… I love science fiction, so I am-

Thomas Colson:

Me too.

Raymond Guarnieri:

… excited to learn about how prior art could be found in science fiction, or science fiction could be [crosstalk 00:01:00] prior art [inaudible 00:01:01] something.

Thomas Colson:

Right. Can science fiction be used as prior art to block patents? Now, just to give you a quick background, in case a few of you don’t know this. To get a patent, wherever you are in the world, your invention essentially has to be novel, that means new, useful, and non-obvious. And by non-obvious, I mean, in Europe, they call it an inventive step is required. To go from what’s in the public domain and known, and your invention, you need an inventive step. In other words, somebody who’s knowledgeable in that field, wouldn’t say, “Oh, that’s obvious. Based upon what’s out there, that’s obvious.” Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

If it’s not new or it’s obvious, you can’t get a patent. So, how do you assess whether it’s new and also non-obvious? You have to figure out what’s in the public domain, and that could be publications, it’s all ready been written and described in a publication. It could be products that are in the marketplace. It could be what’s on store shelves. It could be marketing materials. It could be anything in the public domain that describes your invention in such a way that it’s enabled. It actually tells you how to do it. Right? Because if it’s all ready out there, you can’t get a patent. And why is that? Because think about what you get with a patent. You are offering a deal, essentially. I’ve got this great idea, this great idea that can help everybody. It’s a really cool thing that could make humanity better. It can make our lives easier or faster or whatever it is that makes life better, it does that. Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

So, I’m going to get, in exchange for giving up this great idea, I’m going to get a monopoly on that idea for maybe 15 to 20 years. Right? In the US, in different parts of the world, it’s like 20 years from the date of filing. So, I can prevent everyone from making, using, selling, and even offering to sell my invention if I get a patent on it. That’s pretty powerful. Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

In fact, monopolies are typically illegal, but this is like a legal form of a monopoly. Right? And I’m being very simplistic about that. It’s not a monopoly, but it kind of smells like one. Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

So, what do you have to do to get this powerful right? Well, you got to give us something that we don’t all ready have. Right? I mean, why would the government of any nation give Ray or Tom a monopoly over our invention, the right to keep other people, everybody in the nation that we get the patent, from making, using, selling, or offering to sell if it’s all ready out there? We don’t need you. They could say to us, “Dude, we don’t need you. We all ready have it. I have this article, this publication that all ready described your invention, so go away.” Right? So, the question is, okay, so this is prior art, relevant prior art, that those are publications or other descriptions of inventions that would be relevant to a patent application that is being examined by a patent examiner. Right?

Thomas Colson:

So, the patent examiner gets your invention. Ray has filed a patent application on this, whatever this is. He or she then looks all over the world and see if they can find a publication that describes your invention so they can block you from getting a patent, which means they don’t have to give you that monopoly. Right? Because it’s all ready in the public domain.

Thomas Colson:

And just to give you an idea of how broad this could be, a long time ago, I had a client come into me with this invention to cook cone cakes. A cone cake is you take those sugar cones, they got the pointed bottom, put cupcake stuff in the top, you put it in the oven, and it bakes it and then you have a comb cake. And the challenge was, these have pointy bottoms, so how do you stand them up in the oven? So, he came up with this device that enables you to stand them up as you slide them into the oven. We ultimately lost because of prior art that was on the back of an ice cream cone box in a supermarket.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Wow.

Thomas Colson:

So, it could be a technical article, it could be a conference paper, it could be the back of an ice cream cone box. Right? So, the question is, can it be science fiction? I mean, for example, somebody comes up with an invention for a transporter beam. Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

I was just thinking that.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah.

Raymond Guarnieri:

I was just thinking like… Wait, so if I actually did invent the transporter beam-

Thomas Colson:

You’d be rich.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Well, what would I? Because everybody could just copy me because I wouldn’t be able to patent it.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. The question is, is Gene Roddenberry, his show, Star Trek prior art against your transporter beam invention?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. That’s what I want to know. I’ve got the lab going right now and our researchers are working on the transporter beam, but if I’m just dumping a lot of money into R&D for nothing, I got to know.

Thomas Colson:

Right, right. Exactly. So, the answer in that case would be, no, it’s not prior because Gene Roddenberry never disclosed to the public how to actually make it. You’d have to have an enabled disclosure. So, he didn’t do that. So, basically, there’s two quick things I want to describe to you before we talk about this a little more. There’s two basic kinds of patents that I’m thinking of. One is called a utility patent, and one is a design patent. A utility is all about the function of your invention. Right? You have a chair with a back, a seat, four legs, and two armrests. And if somehow that were not all ready invented, that could be a utility patent because it’s functional. Right? You have a functional application of your invention, you can sit down on the thing.

Thomas Colson:

But there’s also a design patent, which is more related… It’s not related to the function. It’s related to the ornamental design of your product. Right? So, you might have it on the shape of your Tupperware container or of a bottle or something like that. The design, the ornamental nature of it, as opposed to the function. So, you might all ready be thinking, “Maybe science fiction could be better for design patents than utility patents,” because you don’t have to talk about the function.

Thomas Colson:

So, what got me thinking, I had this discussion a long time ago with my close friend, John Cronin, who’s not only a brilliant and prolific inventor in his own right, but he’s also an IP expert throughout the world. And he and I were out drinking some beers one night, and we were talking about using science fiction as prior art. We came up with some obvious examples, like the flip phone in Star Trek. They had that device, the communicator, they called it. It was a flip phone. And could that be prior art against flip phones today? So, it got me thinking about the nature of science fiction writers. Who are these people?

Thomas Colson:

So, I did a search on three legends in the world of science fiction, and interestingly, you’ve heard of none of them, because we talked about this before. But I’ve heard of all of them because I’m older than you. One of them is Isaac Asimov, one of them is Robert Heinlein, and the other one is Arthur C. Clarke. Big, giant legends in the area of science fiction. So, I did a little research on them, and here’s what I discovered. How could these guys come up with inventions? They’re just science fiction writers. Right? So, Isaac Asimov is a legend. He’s got like 500 books that he’s either written or edited related to science fiction. He also has a Master’s in chemistry from Columbia and a PhD in chemistry from Columbia. He was also… He’s dead now, but he was also a biochemistry professor at Boston University School of Medicine.

Thomas Colson:

He also invented… I’m using air quotes because these are not inventions, they’re more like they’re just words. He invented the words robotics, robotics, and positronic. Okay? Now, if you’re not a Star Trek Next Generation fan… I don’t know if you are not, Ray. Have you ever watched Star Trek Next Generation? Well, there’s a commander in the Star Trek universe called Commander Data who is an artificial intelligence robot, and he has in his brain, a positronic brain. Okay? That comes from Isaac Asimov. It’s totally fake. Right? But Isaac Asimov, he’s a science guy. He’s a PhD in chemistry. I mean, when you look at inventors, what are they? They’re PhDs. A lot of them are in chemistry.

Thomas Colson:

So, then I go to Robert Heinlein, his famous book that you might know of is Stranger in a Strange Land. Another thing you might know is Starship Troopers.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Oh yeah.

Thomas Colson:

Okay. Well, that’s Robert Heinlein.

Raymond Guarnieri:

I love that whole series.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. And he did them all. Right? And those are his movies. Right? Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers. The thing about Heinlein, he not only was a Naval officer, but he was an aeronautical engineer. I mean, this is a science guy. This is an inventive guy. Right? Then Arthur C. Clark, another legend. He is 2001: A Space Odyssey. Have you ever heard of that?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right. Yes. Great [crosstalk 00:10:26].

Thomas Colson:

I know. That’s him.

Raymond Guarnieri:

I’ve haven’t read the book but-

Thomas Colson:

Okay. The movie is with Stanley Kubrick, but Arthur C. Clark is the brains. He’s the writer of this series. Right? He also was in the Royal Air Force as a radar specialist, and he helped develop something called an early warning radar defense system. Okay? He has degrees in physics and mathematics, and wait, there’s some other interesting information. So, he’s a physics guy, mathematics guy. He’s also involved in the development of something called geostationary satellites and their applications to telecommunications relays. Okay? And he’s so well-known for this, that, in that world, there’s this spot which is 22,000 miles, or 36,000 kilometers, above the earth’s equator is called the Clark orbit, after Arthur C. Clark. So, this guy is a science guy, but he’s a great science fiction writer.

Thomas Colson:

So, in 1951, he publishes a book called The Exploration of Space. This is Arthur C. Clark. It’s used by this guy who’s a rocket pioneer named Wernher Von Braun to convince JFK that we could go to the moon. Okay? His book is used to convince John F. Kennedy that we could go to the moon. So, these are science people. By the way, he has a really cool quote that I read, which I got to read. Right? He’s talking to people about whether there’s life on other planets. Right? Eveybody’s always wondering that. So, he says, “Two possibilities exist. Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. Both are equally terrifying.”

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yes.

Thomas Colson:

It’s a great quote, isn’t it?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Isn’t that have to do with something called the… I want to call it the Fermi Paradox, but it’s like, if there’s-

Thomas Colson:

Oh, Fermi? After the guy whose name the Fermi lab is named after?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Might not be the right [crosstalk 00:12:25].

Thomas Colson:

Okay. But what is it anyway?

Raymond Guarnieri:

It’s it’s that if there is no life outside of earth, that it’s an indication that in order for life to become complex enough to leave its own solar system, that gap between jumps is too big for life to-

Thomas Colson:

Get out.

Raymond Guarnieri:

… get out at all.

Thomas Colson:

Right. Right. To get out of where-

Raymond Guarnieri:

[crosstalk 00:12:55] there will be no humanity because it’ll never escape our solar system. [Crosstalk 00:13:01] an inverse of that, but I’m not going to even try to quote it.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. But our human-

Raymond Guarnieri:

[crosstalk 00:13:06] off topic.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. The human existence has a single point of failure, which is earth. But if we could get out, then we have more places that humanity can continue to flourish.

Raymond Guarnieri:

And Elon If you’re, if you’re listening… I mean, I know you’re listening because-

Thomas Colson:

Of course. Of course. Why wouldn’t you be?

Raymond Guarnieri:

We’re fully in support of the Mars colony.

Thomas Colson:

Mars colony. I’m totally [crosstalk 00:13:26].

Raymond Guarnieri:

And if there’s we can do to help from an IP standpoint, just let us know.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. Here’s a funny thing. You know the movie The Martian, it’s also a book, The Martian.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. The book, The Martian was so good I listened to it on Audible and I arrived at my destination… I was driving like to DC or something. I arrived at my destination and I still had an hour to go, so I just sat in the hotel parking lot to get through The Martian. It was so good. Then I watched the movie. Somebody I know who’s not that bright, but she said to me, “Wait, is that real? Did we actually do that? Have we been to Mars?” So, maybe we’ve all ready been there. But anyway, so these people, though, are people of science, so it’s not hard to see how they could invent stuff and put it in their stories and then have that serve as prior art. Right?

Thomas Colson:

So, let’s go to the waterbed example because you discussed that at the beginning, and that is Heinlein. So, Robert Heinlein writes three books that are relevant to this: 1942, something called Beyond This Horizon; 1956, Double Star; and 1961, Stranger in a Strange Land. So, Heinlein was also a Naval officer, and I might get this wrong, so if there’s any Robert Heinlein fans that are listening, forgive me for this, but I think he was convalescing in the hospital and he was imagining how you could make a more comfortable bed on water. So, he developed this water bed in great detail that he put into these three publications. Then, in 1968… Right. Yeah. 1968, a guy named Charles Hall, he actually created the first commercial water bed. And when he filed a patent application for it, he was rejected because of Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land.

Thomas Colson:

So, we know that that can be prior art because it was disclosed thoroughly, because again, with your transporter beam that you’re working on, you don’t have to worry about Gene Roddenberry because it’s a black box, who the hell knows how it works. But in this case, he did it with enough specificity that someone who’s an expert in that field could actually make it based upon his description, so it’s prior art, and poor Charles Hall who had this brilliant idea to have a water bed, he could sleep in it, but he couldn’t block other people from making it and putting it in the market as well.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right.

Thomas Colson:

By the way, it’s too bad because in the ’70s, waterbeds were really a big thing.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Really?

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. You’re way too young to remember that. But I remember waterbeds were a really hot thing.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. I got in one once and wasn’t really thrilled.

Thomas Colson:

You weren’t thrilled.

Raymond Guarnieri:

[crosstalk 00:16:07].

Thomas Colson:

Well, maybe there wasn’t enough water to your liking.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Probably, yeah.

Thomas Colson:

But in fact, they were so popular that now in rental agreements, because I’m a landlord now, I own a few rental properties, I got a standard rental agreement and they all say you can’t have water beds.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Why?

Thomas Colson:

Because if they pop, you got water everywhere.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah, it can cause damage.

Thomas Colson:

Imagine all that water going through… I’m just looking at my ceilings. Can you imagine pouring through your ceilings, that wouldn’t be cool. So, anyway, that’s Robert Heinlein and the water bed. But there’s another cool case because we got to use another one of our great legendary science fiction writers, Arthur C. Clark, who does 2001: A Space Odyssey. In 2011, Apple, a little company called Apple, I think it’s a fruit company, they create this device called the iPhone. Maybe you’ve heard of it. And they sue Samsung because of their Galaxy iPhone and tablets. Right? And they sue them based upon the screens, for their design patents. Okay? Now, these are design patents, so again, utility patents, you got to really disclose it in science fiction so that somebody can make it if you want to be prior art against a utility patent. But a design patent, that’s just the ornamental design of your product. Right? So, that, you could see it. So, get a load of this, in 2011… imagine the collision of these giants of Apple and Samsung. Right? I mean-

Raymond Guarnieri:

Like Godzilla versus King Kong.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. Do you think that these giants are hiring lightweight lawyers?

Raymond Guarnieri:

No.

Thomas Colson:

No. They’re probably hiring the best and the brightest lawyers we have to offer. And by we, I don’t mean the Colson Law Group, I mean humanity right? And they’re not just hiring one, there’s a team. It’s like a giant team of lawyers.

Raymond Guarnieri:

They’re like in an organized, tight phalanx [crosstalk 00:18:07].

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. This is a team of brilliant lawyers. Right? The defense, you know what they did, the defense for Samsung? So, a preliminary injunction motion is filed by Apple against Samsung. You might remember preliminary injunction motion is, “Hey, if you, judge, if you let them keep infringing our patent, we will be irreparably harmed by the time this case gets through litigation in two or three years. You got to stop them today, pending the outcome of litigation.” And that’s a pretty serious ask. Right? Because you’re asking the court to essentially make a decision before all the proof is in. Right? And because if you can shut down a preliminary injunction for two or three years, you might be done. So, they make a preliminary injunction motion.

Thomas Colson:

Samsung defends themselves by saying this patent is invalid based upon a disclosure from Arthur C. Clark and Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey. Okay? Because in 2001: A Space Odyssey, they had these screens that were touch screens and information was popping up, and it was used by these space people. Right? So, these brilliant lawyers, these are not ham-and-eggers that have billboards up that are describing their personal injury exploits. These are high-capability, high-brain, intellectual property litigators, and their response was Arthur C Clarke’s 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Thomas Colson:

Now, I read an article about it, and the article indicated that the court granted the preliminary… Or I’m sorry, the court were ruled against Samsung, but for procedural reasons, not because of their use of science fiction as prior art. So, that’s pretty-

Raymond Guarnieri:

Can you say that again? Because-

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. And by the way, I don’t know what the procedural grounds were, but the article was very short and it was emphasizing that the court did not reject them because of their use of science fiction.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Interesting. Yeah. So, it wasn’t on that basis.

Thomas Colson:

Right. Right. So, then, the third one that I wanted to mention, which is worth mentioning, I love to do an Isaac Asimov one to round this out with all three, but I don’t have an Isaac Asimov one. But I’ve got another great prolific legend, and by prolific, I mean he’s everywhere. Right? This is a guy that everyone knows. His name is Donald Duck. Do you know this person?

Raymond Guarnieri:

I’m sorry, who?

Thomas Colson:

Donald Duck

Raymond Guarnieri:

Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Thomas Colson:

Donald Duck. Come on, you know who Donald Duck is. Right? Come on. Donald [crosstalk 00:20:58].

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah, he ran for president, didn’t he?

Thomas Colson:

He’s the most famous duck on earth, I think. Right? So, here’s the story of Donald Duck and how Donald Duck played into prior art. So, there was a famous case in the ’60s, I’m kind of looking down to read a little bit here, where a freighter, the Al Kuwait was capsized at the docks of Kuwait’s harbor. The ship was carrying 5,000 sheep that started decomposing in the harbors water. Since this threatened to contaminate the city of Kuwait’s drinking water supply, the ship had to be raised as quickly as possible. Okay? So, this guy, a Danish inventor, Karl Krøyer, he comes up with this idea to take a tube and fill it with plastic balls and fill the ship with plastic balls and make it buoyant so that it will float to the surface. Right? And it actually worked. I guess it costs them 300… They had 27 million plastic balls, 27 million plastic balls, and they filled it. And apparently, it raised the ship, and the cost was $345,000 US dollars, but it saved the insurance company over $2 million for the ship.

Thomas Colson:

So, anyway, this guy files for a patent application, and the Dutch patent office, the Dutch patent office rejects them based upon prior art, which was a 1947… Let’s see, I want to make sure I get this right. It was a 1949 Donald Duck story called The Sunken Yacht by Carl Barks, which shows Donald and his nephews raising the ship by filling it with ping pong balls shoved through a tube, as can be shown through the image. Now, I’m certain that you can do better than I’m going to do by putting this up on the screen right now. Right? You can probably do better than I’m going to do. But it was considered prior art, and it blocked his patent that he tried to get in the Netherlands.

Raymond Guarnieri:

That’s crazy.

Thomas Colson:

It’s crazy.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Donald Duck prevented a patent.

Thomas Colson:

Right? Exactly. So, the final thing I want to mention on this is to give you the other side, which we mentioned the transporter beam. Right? There’s also something called a lightsaber.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Have you heard of that. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Someone actually made one like a legit lightsaber that kind of works, and it looks like a real lightsaber.

Thomas Colson:

Okay. Well, that’s pretty cool because Star Wars would not be prior art against that lightsaber, if it’s a utility patent, because you don’t know how it works. Right? Star Wars doesn’t teach you how it works. So, it would not be prior… But, but, if there were a design patent on that lightsaber, it might be. Right? Because there it’s the ornamental design that’s inventive and not the functional part. The other things I was thinking of are warp speed. You know what warp speed is, right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. It’s where they go-

Thomas Colson:

They go really fast.

Raymond Guarnieri:

… fast through space.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. Somebody was trying to explain it to me once, how it’s like you don’t move, but the universe moves or something like that. I don’t know [crosstalk 00:24:28].

Raymond Guarnieri:

[crosstalk 00:24:28] space on itself.

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know what any of that means, but it’s not described enough that if somebody came up with warp speed, it would be prior. And the other example, have you ever heard of a show called Stargate?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yes. Yeah.

Thomas Colson:

SG1 or something. That was actually a movie with Kurt Russell and somebody else who’s famous. That does not have a sufficient description to be considered prior art.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Interesting. So, it has to be described clearly, unless you’re talking about a design pattern.

Thomas Colson:

And then it has to be shown clearly. Right? Because, again, utility patents, so in order to block someone’s… Because, remember, you can’t patent an idea or a concept, it’s got to be something that you can actually make. It’s got to be useful. Right? Your idea has to be such that somebody could, after you describe it in your patent application, somebody reasonably skilled in the art, somebody who does that sort of thing, can actually make it. So, it’s the same goes with prior art. If you want to use your prior art to block a competitive patent, that prior art must actually show how the thing is made. [crosstalk 00:25:35].

Raymond Guarnieri:

Yeah. I would not have guessed that you could use science fiction to prevent an actual patent application. But I think probably the most interesting thing for me personally, at least, is that all of these science fiction writers are such prolific scientists themselves.

Thomas Colson:

I know.

Raymond Guarnieri:

The line between science and fiction makes you think that it’s just pure inventive, imaginary inventiveness, not like actual, real inventiveness backed up by scientific knowledge where they’re just fantasizing a little on top of what they know that. Which is what it is, which is makes it so much cooler and makes me want to go back and read some science fiction [crosstalk 00:26:21].

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. That is the thing that impressed me the most, doing a little bit of research for this podcast, is how impressive these great science fiction writers are as scientists. But now it makes sense. Right?

Raymond Guarnieri:

Right. And now also my hopes of ever becoming a science fiction writer are dashed because I need to go back and get my PhD, I guess.

Thomas Colson:

Listen, you want… Here’s a funny thing. When I went back after law school to get my chemistry degree, I did not go back to be a patent lawyer. I went back to get my chemistry degree to become a science fiction writer. That is why I went back to get my chemistry degree. But-

Raymond Guarnieri:

That’s why you wanted to do this podcast so bad?

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. No. But, but-

Raymond Guarnieri:

Are you going to reveal now your plans [crosstalk 00:27:12] book?

Thomas Colson:

Yeah. You know I’m a closet writer. But I was married at the time and I would have… I’m divorced, but I would have been divorced a lot sooner if I told my my wife at the time, “I’m going to be spending four nights a week, four hours to five hours a night after work, and then all day on Saturday and all day on Sunday, studying chemistry for the next four years,” if I said it was going to be a science fiction writer. She would have immediately divorced me. So, I came up with this patent law idea, which was [crosstalk 00:27:47].

Raymond Guarnieri:

And now here we are, everyone.

Thomas Colson:

And here we are. Now we’re doing a podcast not on science fiction writing, but on intellectual property.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Well, I’m looking forward to your first science fiction novel. Perhaps it could be something to do with gene editing and super humans and… I don’t know.

Thomas Colson:

Ray, you might be looking forward to my second one. I’m only kidding.

Raymond Guarnieri:

[crosstalk 00:28:09]. Oh, I thought you were going to like… Can we just get the title of it?

Thomas Colson:

No, no, no. I’m not. I’m totally joking.

Raymond Guarnieri:

Everyone, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Stuff You Should Know About IP. And prior art and science fiction, are they one in the same? Possibly, we learned today. So, thank you for tuning in. If you like this, hit the subscribe button, share it with your friends, and we’ll see you next time.

Thomas Colson:

See you.